Managing God's Treasure 6

Thank you for your grace, Lord. I know this week, it's been, it's been good for me just to reflect upon the immense grace that you've shown me. That you've shown Cornerstone as a church. And Lord, as we think about giving, I know I'm learning more about, about what giving is to look like.

Laura, that I have thought and practiced just about every wrong way of thinking about giving. Every wrong practice of giving. and Lord, you're still there, guiding me, and I just thank you for that. Lord, we just ask for your grace as we, as we learn right now in Jesus' name.

Amen. Yeah, I, as I, as I said in the prayer, I, I have probably thought every goofy thought about giving. I look back at my early years as a Christian and the ways that I conceptualize giving and really some weird stuff that I've, I've, I've, positions I've held throughout throughout my lifetime and I'm hopefully I'll get a chance to confess a little bit of that. As we go through class today.

Today is the good stuff. it's, it's not, it's not terribly confusing. I know the last class, the investments can get a little, A little crazy, there's a lot, there's a lot to try to wrap your mind around. my advice to you is just to, to slow down, buy a book or two, relax, get some counsel, and then move, move forward in that.

Don't, don't let it, don't let it get you down, don't let it confuse you. All right, listen, we're, we're going to talk about giving before we do that. I want to talk about just briefly remind us what we are up to. this class is part of what Cornerstone is developing.

As our Equipping for the journey series. It's a class dealing with how do we move, what are the, what are the specifics of moving from brokenness to wholeness and in doing this, at least my conception of it is that we end up looking at, a number of different areas, of brokenness. Where are we broken? And then trying to look at how does the gospel come in to help us move from that brokenness to, wholeness.

And we want to, and the, the idea is to take the gospel to every single area of life. As Milton says, we want to tease out every implication of the gospel and bring that to bear. On every area of life and that, that's going to encompass our entire journey. we're going to, to leave this world still teasing out aspects of the gospel and the good news is, is we're going to spend eternity, enjoying, the benefits of the gospel and we're going to find today that when you talk about, And come, come back a little bit to the journey.

The, the last step of the journey is, is God, whoops, is gospel glory. That's our, that's our last step. And What we're going to find is that giving has a large impact on our gospel glory. How we live our lives in this world has a big impact of how we will spend eternity.

I don't fully understand that. I'm going to share with you the little bit I do understand about that and the little bit I do understand about that is hugely encouraging to me. And I hope it will be encouraging to you also when, somebody talks about storing up your treasure in heaven, what in the world does that mean? Is there some stack of gold waiting for us when we get there?

what exactly does that look like and what in the world connection is there between giving and that stack of gold or whatever it is that we're going to receive in eternity? That's always confused me. And it's still to some degree that I don't completely understand it because I don't completely understand eternity. I'm not sure I understand very much of eternity at all actually.

but what I do understand is amazing and giving has a huge part to do with that, so we're going to explore that, Today, what we want the, the, the title of this. is giving away treasure thoughtfully. and I know for me, when, especially most of my Christian life, I've given, I've given, you learn very quickly in your Christian life that you're, you're supposed to give, give, give money to the church because, the church does things and they need money and, and all of that. But for a long, long time, I never thought very deeply about it.

I knew it was something I needed to do, but my, the depth of my thought was not very great. so let's take a look at what scripture says. It says, Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly. Hm.

He who sows bountifully. will also reap bountifully. Hm. each one must do just as he has.

Purpose in his heart. And that's the emphasis, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver, and God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have abundance for every good deed. So what does Paul want us to do before we give? Or what does he want the Corinthians to do before they give?

Yeah, he wants them to think about it, right? He wants them to purpose in their heart. He wants them not just to give money. he, he's not just interested in, in them giving, he's interested in the way they give it.

He says stop and think, purpose in your heart, think through the reasons for which you are giving this money. Why does Paul want them to do that? Well, I would argue is that it has to do with why God has given us the treasure to begin with. The primary reason for the treasure is to do what?

is to change us from brokenness to wholeness, and the more we think and purpose in our hearts about our giving, The more transformation we are going to see. And I know, I, I know about you, does your heart default to giving? Mine doesn't. My heart, my heart does not default to giving.

It just doesn't. My, my heart defaults to selfishness. That's the default setting, yeah. Well, yeah, when you're married, yeah, you're, there are some.

The, the way, the way you think about money changes. Yeah, cause there's just now, there's now some negotiations and some different things that are going on and different drains on, on, on money. I have to confess though, even being married, my thinking about giving is, is still pretty selfishly focused. I'm just, I'm just better at, masking and rationalizing my, my selfishness.

For better or for worse. But my, I know that my heart does not default there. If I, if I just, if I don't purpose, if I don't grab a hold of myself and say, Bill, you need to think about this, you need to be thinking about the, the riches that you have, the treasure that God is giving you, my default will be that, that the vast majority of the treasure will go to my own. Wacko ideas of pleasure.

What vices? I'll buy bicycles. Yeah, I'll buy, I'll buy bicycles with it. Not so much anymore, but yeah, but I, I default, I default that way.

So I, I really, I, I have to work at purposing my heart and that means filling my heart with the reasons for giving. What is it? I, I want to think through and fill my heart and explore all of the avenues that giving has for me. How does it change me to think about this?

I don't want to just give. I know in the past my giving was if, if a need came up, yeah, OK, I, I open my wall, there's a couple of bucks, yeah, I've, I've given., on a Sunday they pass, you, you pass around the plate. I go, oh yeah, I should give a couple of bucks to the church. Don't, there's a couple of bucks for the church.

Without purposing my heart. No, there was no purposing, there was no thinking through this. There was just, this is what you're supposed to do or there would be something that's presented to me that would, that would capture me emotionally and I would open up my wallet and give money. Sometimes a little bit, sometimes more, but it was, it was very much in resistance, it was a response and then it was, it was over and done with.

But Paul says to purpose our hearts, to think about it so that we magnify the blessing and the transformation power of the giving. Howard Dayton gives, describes 3, about 34 advantages of giving and I'm gonna give you 1/5 1. That's, that's my own and you, you may, you may agree or disagree with mine. Howard Dayton's are pretty good.

number one, Howard Dayton says that giving creates increased intimacy with God. That thinking about giving creates increased intimacy. does Jesus identifies with the poor. In fact, Jesus goes all the way to say that when you give to The needy you are giving to Me, personally, that's the depth to which his heart is tied to those who are in need.

And so when I am thinking about giving or giving, I am engaging in something where I'm, I'm, I'm coming beside Jesus and saying this is you. I, I'm in a certain sense ministering to you. You are here in this. There, there's an intimacy there, in the giving.

OK, this is not, oh, this thing is supposed to work all the time. This is not my gadget. This is, OK, so anyway, let's, let's go ahead and move on to the, To, the next, the next thing here. Hopefully this will come back alive here in a minute.

the second thing that, that, that Howard Dayton says comes from giving is development of character. development of character. And I think one of the best places to look for development of character is to look at Paul's letter to the Philippians, especially the, the second chapter. What, what is the goal of our character development?

In fact, what is actually the goal of being whole? What is, what, what would we say it looks like? Looks like Jesus, yeah. It's, it's to be transformed into the image of God's Son.

That is, that is giving. Did Jesus give? Giving pretty much defines his life. all the way to what it says in scripture that he became poor, that we might become Rich.

It doesn't get any probably more radical than that, right? He became poor that we might become rich. So giving, makes us or, or transforms us. To be more like Jesus, and we have treasure to do that.

God gives us his treasure, not our treasure, his treasure, so that we can give it away, so that we can be transformed into the image of His Son. That's pretty radical. So the more, the more, the more we understand treasure that way. the more power there is in giving it away.

the third one. And, and I hope I can do justice to this, is that we are making an investment for eternity. But there's a sense in which when we give, we are investing in our eternal future. scripture says, do not store up for yourself treasures on earth.

What happens to treasures on Earth? Yeah, they deteriorate, right? There's moths and rust and thieves. breaking and steal.

True, I put a lot of energy into keeping my junk. up to speed. You gotta clean it, you gotta oil it, you gotta, you gotta wash it and you get. Put it someplace where the bugs don't get it and all that good stuff.

do not store it for yourselves treasure on earth where moss and rust destroy, but where thieves break in and steal, so we gotta protect it, but store it for yourselves. Treasure in heaven. Where neither moth or rust destroys and where thieves do not break and steal. So Jesus seems to be saying there's some way we can take the stuff here that rots.

And we can move it. To where it doesn't. To where we'll have it for all eternity. What in the world does that mean?

Any, any, any ideas? Being you are what you in your treasure. But Right. Yeah.

OK, so, so, so there's a, there's a heart transformation there, that when we, when we, when we let go of these things that rot and, and destroy, our, our, our hearts are being transformed to be different and that difference will go with us where? It's gonna go with us through eternity. Those changes in our heart are going to go with us through eternity. OK, good God, you guys are helping me out here.

That, that, that I think is a big part of it. That is a big, big part of it, but it's not all of it. Yeah. No, I, I agree with you.

we, we're investing, what my poor sad brain is trying to wrap itself around. I, what does that exactly mean? What does that look like? I give my money to, a ministry that does, evangelism.

I give my money to a ministry that, trains pastors. I give my, my money to a ministry that feeds the poor. How does that, how does that translate Into treasure in heaven. It, it changes my heart, obviously.

I'm now, I'm now holding those things loosely, they don't have that hold on me that they once had. I'm, I'm ripping myself away from the shackles of materialism. Which is, especially in our culture, really powerful, so I'm breaking those shackles, yeah. P But After I 20 And his first response was, He arose and he tore his robe.

Because he had the Worship. Yeah possession Mm Naked I came from my mother's womb and naked I shall. The Lord gave And the Lord is taken away. The last said Hm.

So Joe Oh yeah, and what we need to learn. Thank you, John. Our giving is a form of worship. Mm OK.

So yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a giving, a giving away and that is, it's training us or transforming us to be worshippers of God, which is what we were created to be. Michelle was saying, Yeah. Why Mhm. Yankees Hm OK, let me, let me, let's, let's look at another passage of scripture and share another thing that I think that really moves me at least.

this is in 2 Corinthians in, in chapter 9. If, if, probably the longest chunk of teaching on giving is 2 Corinthians 8 and 9. That's just a Huge passage if you want to unpack different aspects of giving, but in 9, 12 through 15, Paul writes this, he says, for the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but it is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God. Here's where it gets good.

Because of the proof given by this ministry, they, who's they? The, the people who are receiving this gift that Paul is collecting, they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel. So my giving actually does what? It, it transforms other people when I give to them.

Because they're being transformed by my obedience to what the gospel means. The gospel means to give, and that is helping them to better understand and wrap their minds around the gospel. They are seeing in a certain sense, a physical embodiment of what the gospel means, and they're rejoicing because of that. And it goes on, of Christ for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all, while they also by prayer on your behalf, and here's here, he says, they yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.

Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift. They yearn for you. What's the only thing that crosses the divide between this world and heaven? My, yeah my bicycles aren't, my bicycles aren't going right.

my drum sets aren't going. all the things, all my cool computers aren't going. All that goes across it are people. So if I'm going to store treasure, that treasure is most likely going to have to be.

In people. And that's what it says here. It says that, that these, the people who've received this gift now yearn for you. Your hearts have been tied together in some way that I would argue, crosses that barrier and becomes treasure in heaven.

and, and I've begun to think about this that If, if I don't give, Does that mean I won't experience salvation? No. But I think it does mean that my experience throughout eternity will be in some way stunted. That's not a negative.

I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to be negative here and say you better give or you're gonna, you're gonna be a, you're gonna be a, a weenie in heaven or something like that, that's, that's not my, that's not my point. But my point is there's, there's, there's something about the relationships we'll have for eternity because we have given in this life. I don't know all what that means, but it is hugely an encouragement for me to give. It's something that takes my, my selfish heart and changes it.

But I can now look forward to meeting people in heaven to whom I've given money. They yearn in some ways I don't want you to understand this. There's, there's a building of a bond and a relationship that, that trance that goes across that barrier and is my treasure in heaven. Does that make sense?

And that's very encouraging to me. because I do not default to giving. I, I've seen some of that, in this life, where, when I've taken my treasure and poured not only my treasure but my, but my life into a ministry, there is a bond that develops there. That is very hard to describe.

It's a, it's a very different, thing. and to be able to experience that throughout eternity is, I think, an amazing thing to look forward to. OK, so giving now. Leads to relationships, deeper relationships, more amazing relationships for all eternity.

Cool stuff. it also, giving also leads to increased material blessings. this does not mean that this is not the health, no, you didn't walk into a health and wealth, seminar, no. Yeah, that's not, that's not the point.

Yeah, give, give to my ministry and God will, will, will make you, make you wealthy. That's not the point here. We don't give to get, we give to To glorify God and we also, if, if, if, Paul says in 2 Corinthians, we give to be able to give more. That as we give, God blesses us so we, so we are able to do even more good works, to, to, to, to make, to increase our prosperity.

we give more, so we have an abundance for every good deed. So we give to be able, to give, if that makes any sense. So if it's And they're gonna be Yeah. When God changes I and Yeah, Paul said, Paul says in Acts that Jesus taught that to, to give is more blessed than to receive.

And I think the only way you can make sense of that is that because you because you're giving away stuff. You're going, where's my stuff? there goes my stuff. That there, there's something going on there that, that's, that's much deeper.

Michelle? So many facets Saying about your treasure because Towards bringing back some things where we, we're able to give like anonymously, for. And we've seen How they What they received and that like. Hearts and we were, it was just it was just.

It was awesome. Yeah Be able to do, but we've also, and you guys were there with us, we're able to pour into and financially give. our Huge. We're able to just Trust God.

So I. But This is He's working on Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, Piper says that God's always doing a million things, and, and when we're giving, yeah, there's, we're, we're, we're part of that, that, that crazy. Thing that that the the it just multiplies those millions of things that are happening. There's all kinds of ripple effects of the giving that, that we don't even, we don't even realize, even when we, even when we feel like we've gotten burned in giving, I know that there's been times when I've given and I felt, I have felt that I've gotten burned in giving, but there is good that comes out of that.

There's good that comes out of that. And, one of the things I'm gonna talk about, a little bit later on, is, where do you give? You're going to give, where do you give that money? and what Michelle's talking about is one of the advantages of giving to your local church.

Because in the local church, you get to deal with the messiness of it. Right? You get to, you get to, that sounds, that's, that, that sounds what, man? Giving, giving to your local church is not clean.

It's not like you just write it, blah blah blah. It's not, it's not, it's not clean. It's messy, how, what, what, what do they do with that? What do they buy over there, or, or I, I help so and so and blah, and you go, but that's, that's the messiness that transforms us.

It's, it's, it's going through all of that. It's that not just writing a check and saying, well, that ministry is doing great. I get all these glossy. I, I, I'm not, I watch my attitude, what I'm saying.

I'm not trying to make a point against, good communication about needs around the world, but it's giving to your local church is not clean giving. and, and I think because it's not clean giving, it has, it has transformation potential that is beyond the simple, writing of a check, and that to me is a good thing and that's, and God, and God wants it. God wants us to walk towards the messiness. not just, not just to give cleanly.

We, we may give and, and get burned, but that getting burned and being part of the process of dealing with getting burned and all those kinds of things, those are transformative processes. That's actually the good stuff. we, we grow more when we move towards the messiness. That, that's, that's not my default.

My default is when it gets messy, I wanna run. I don't like Messi., I, I've, I've spent, quite a long time on, as an elder here at Cornerstone, and most of that time I have been on the finance committee. And what that means is a lot of conversation about money. The church's money, and it's messy.

It's messy. If you're talking about priorities and this, that and the other thing. It's messy. And there, there's times when you're frustrated and there's times where you're, you're, you're, you're asking all kinds of questions, but it is a good messy.

It's a good messy. at the, at the end, you, you, you, well, we're gonna get to the part about, more about why give to your local church, here in a minute, but there's some, there's some really amazing things that I never realized, back when I was a A, a young pup or whatever. Those were, they were always those church leaders and they're over there doing stuff. And I never thought, I never thought there was any way in the world I'd ever be one of those guys.

Those guys over there doing stuff and I don't understand what they're doing, it's, they're, yeah, I don't know. They're, they're super spiritual or they're something. I don't know. the other aspect of giving.

Is that it can be fun. I just need fun. Howard Dayton didn't say this. But secular people have realized this.

people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, these guys, they are, they are committing, to, To give away huge amounts of their, their treasure. These guys are ridiculous rich. Bill Gates, I think has something in the neighborhood of, $70 billion or something. It changes because it's, it's mostly stock and stock is, stock is not money.

but. So it changes, developed depending upon the value of the stock, but he's committed himself to giving away almost all of it during his lifetime or after he dies it will be given away. And there, and if, if you read, and I'm, I'm actually fascinated by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. they just love it.

It's like, it's like a second, it's like a second life to them. They're just having the greatest time in their in their lives giving away, their money. It's messy. they've gotten involved in public education and there's nothing more messy than trying to change public education.

and they've done some good and they've gotten burned and, all kinds of things have happened to them, but they're having, they're having a lot of fun at it and, and giving is It is fun. You get to do things and be involved in things that, that are really cool. I know we were in Uganda, that was, it was just, there was a sense in which it was just fun. I got to do things I like to do and I was giving away stuff but it was, it was a, it was very much a fun thing.

another example of this that I like to use, this is actually one of my heroes is Solomon Khan of the Khan Academy. here's a guy who's, who the guy is brilliant, absolutely brilliant. He's got a couple of degrees from MIT. He was a, he was a manager in a hedge fund, making lots of money, and he started tutoring his cousins, I think, in math.

And then he, he, he couldn't, he couldn't meet with them all the time, he started making YouTube videos. Eventually other people started watching the YouTube videos and sending him messages and then eventually he got so into it, he quit his job. And, and basically spent all day in his, OK, in his closet making these videos on how to do math. And it's all free.

Yeah, the, the mission, the mission of the Khan Academy, every time I hear it, it just, it just blesses me. I just, it's, it's one of the greatest vision statements to me of, of any organization I know of. So our mission is to provide a free world-class education to anyone, anywhere. Oh.

that's a teacher's heart, man, that's, that's, that's amazing and Solomon Khan from all I can tell is having a blast doing this. He still makes the videos. He's now got a multi, he's gotten money from Bill Gates and all these cats and he's just having a blast doing this. He's got a a huge, he's got a much larger, he's no longer in his closet.

and he's having a great time and he has a really interesting attitude about money. He's not really interested in, in making a lot, with making a lot of money. He's, he's got very modest, he, he understands to live in the West and to have a car and to have running water and all those kinds of things that, that's, that really makes you wealthy. And he, he adopted that attitude and he's just having a, a blast., he's not, he's no longer, a, hedge fund manager making, hedge fund manager money but he's just having a blast and so the secular people are just understanding that giving and being involved in giving yourself away to the world to do great things is just a blast.

It's a lot of fun. OK. Not spiritual that was, but, but it is, it's fun and I think God's designed us that way and, and secular people are just are, are discovering something as part of common grace. It's part of being a human being.

Giving is, is a greater blessing than receiving common grace. OK, thinking about how much to give, that's, that's, that's a big question. Thinking about, how much to give. once again in Corinthians, Paul says, for I testify that according to their ability, And beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord, begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints.

So how much do we give? Is there, is there a formula? Often, in the church to, to try to wrap our minds around because it's a hard, it's a hard thing to grow up to, to think about. I know when I was younger, I had no clue how much to give.

I, I, I really did not give it much thought. But I think we need to stop and give it some thought, how much do we give? We should be thinking about that on a regular basis. If thinking about your giving is a transformative thing, doing it often would be good.

And Paul actually talks about that, at least once a week. He says, every, every, every Lord's Day, set aside so much, money to, to, to prepare for my collection. He wants you at least once a week to stop and, and think about it. So how much do we give?

Well, one, place, We can, we can look at is we can compare ourselves to others. I, I don't advise this., it says according to the Gallup organization, Those who attend weekly church services give 3.4% of income annually, whereas non-religious people give 1.1% to 1.4%. Other estimates indicate the percentage of income given by professing Christians to church and kingdom causes at between 1.5% and 3.5% of income. The midpoints about 2.5 or 2.6%, somewhere in there.

So, Who knows exactly. Probably somewhere around 3 or 4% of income. And the truth is that a fairly large percentage of people who attend church don't give anything at all or give, almost nothing at all. So the, the, the 3.

the 2.5% is, is somewhat skewed by the fact that you've got people giving really large, large, large amounts in the church. So if you're comparing yourself to others, it's easy to look good in, in the church. There's not giving, if you read many the articles, everyone is, It's a common thing that there's the giving in the church is, is, is down. I was reading one article that said, even, I don't know how, I always say, how do this?

They were saying in, in the 1930s during the Great Depression, Christian giving was 3.3%. I don't know how that, but, I, I guess they found some way to figure that out. Yeah, that's next. Yeah, we're talking about the tithe.

thinking about the tithe. What a, what a lot of people will do is they will turn, it's very common in the church to turn to the tithe, the giving of the tithe, the 10%, right? And this was, this was a command given to, the nation, of Israel says you shall surely tithe all produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year. You shall eat in the presence of the Lord your God at the place where he chooses to establish his name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your, your, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.

So the first fruits, 10% of the first fruits. Now, the $25,000 question, the number one, number one, that's not the only tithe. There was, that was, that was the, the, that this tie was primarily to, the, the temple and those who, who dealt with the temple, there was also ties that looked somewhat like, taxes because Israel is a nation. There was also a, I think every 3rd year, there was a tithe for the poor.

So there were, there were actually probably 3 tithes. It probably averages out to something like 23%, 24% was what the actual tithe was, but that gets confused because some of it you might say was just like our taxes and whatnot. But the $24,000 question is, what about the tithe in the new covenant? we are under grace, we are not under law.

and that's the way, I thought for, a long time. I'm, I'm under grace, this, all this tithe thing doesn't have any application to me. and it's true. If, if, I, I, there's some things in the handout where I go through briefly some of the arguments for the tithe in the New Testament and some of the arguments against the tithe being a New Testament concept.

it's interesting to me at least, that when Paul was writing things like, you need to give to those who preach the gospel to you, you need to give to your teachers and whatnot, he never mentions the tithe in there at all. It's never, he never says anything about the 10% or anything like that. That's interesting to me. but I think that, that Howard Dayton's conclusion is probably to me, a, a good summary.

He says the New Testament. The tithe is neither specifically rejected or specifically recommended. It does teach us to give in proportion to our material blessings, we have received and especially commands sacrificial giving. and my feeling is, and, and, if you really want to get a really good, Randy Alcorn, man, he will just, he makes a huge argument for this, in, The Treasure Principle and his other books, that if 10% is what God is Desiring under law.

Right? What would, how, how should we look at that being under grace? Should, should our conclusion be that Our giving is less. Now, I, I, me operating, when I was younger on the basis of, I said, well I, I, I'm a grace giver.

I give when God touches my heart. I'm not bound by the law anymore. Translation was. I didn't think a whole lot about giving.

And I didn't give a whole lot. But I thought I was giving a whole lot. I thought I was doing pretty darn well. I, if you, if you ask me, are you a generous person, I would have said yes.

But I had no idea how much I was giving cause I never really thought very much about it. In some ways I was a gen I was, I in some ways I was a generous person. I did, I But I, I was not thinking about it 10% or anything. I was, I was just, I'm a grace giver but I, I think if I, if I look back at it, I probably wasn't giving very much at all.

And Randy Alcorn makes the case, and I think it's a really good case, is that under Grace, What we should be looking at Is the 10%, if it's anything, would be a starting point only. It would be where you begin your giving. it's not, it's not the upward measure of it. And, and that's the position I take now is, is, is that, is that a, is that the law when I say every Christian has to give 10%?

No. But I'm saying scripture calls us to think deeply about this, and I think we do need to think about the tithe. I don't think it's wrong to think about the tithe. It would be wrong for me to say that, that the tithe applies to Christian, that, that God demands 10% from you.

I, I, I would not say that. I don't think the New Testament argues that. But, but I like as Randy Alcorn says, I would have a very hard time making the case that grace giving would be less than the tithe. Hard, hard to make that case.

Yeah, Yes Say somebody Does give to A fun Instead Instead Tithing You mean giving time rather than money, is that what you're saying? Money going, money going through, money going through the leadership. My take on that would be that I. I think, I think it's perfectly OK.

I think that, I, in fact, I think it's a good thing that we, that we give money directly to, to each other and meet each other's needs. I think that's absolutely, absolutely scriptural, but I, I don't, and I, I, and I think, I think it leads to good. It can lead to bad, you can get burned and things happen, but that's To me, the, the, the messiness is the good part of it. The messiness is good.

but, but giving, doing that exclusively, I, I, I don't think that that's, I don't think that that's scripture. You see it in Acts. I don't want to use Acts as necessarily, this is the model for the modern church, but you do see the money being brought to the church. Paul does not write letters to individuals.

Paul writes letters to churches. There seems to be an indication that that money is is collected in the church. And there's, and there's something to be said for the role of elders in the handling of God's resources, that the, the, the money, the money being, being overseen by wise elders is something I think that is, that is scriptural and good and in quite honestly, our world and their world, there's a lot of shenanigans going on. that it's a, it's a preventative, from shenanigans happening.

Does that make sense? OK, that's a good question. That's a very, very good question, and I, and I. There's, there's part of us, especially as North American Christians, we have a very, as I do, maybe, maybe you guys are better than I am.

I am very autonomous in my thinking. I'm very autonomous. I don't, I, I, I'm the judge. I'm the judge.

Doggone it. Yeah. And, these guys can't spend the money right. There's lots of ministries out there that are much more effective.

We're all just give the money directly to people. Mm, that's not a good, that, that's, that's not healthy. Now, I'm not saying that, that the elders are doing, the elders are definitely making the best decisions in the world, but that's not healthy. Right?

It's not healthy. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're running away from the mess or you're ignoring the mess. if, if, if you're in a church and you don't feel comfortable, with the wisdom of the elders in your church, then you need to walk towards that mess, not as a complainer or whatever, but you need to get that worked out somehow. Not as, Don't, don't just say, well, these guys, I don't trust, that's not good.

That's, that's not why we're in the body. We're in the Every Oh, I think that way. That's, I, I'm That's me. every, pretty much every stinky attitude towards giving, I have held at some point in my life and I, I still have crud.

I still have crud inside of me. Where I'm, where I'm making decisions about giving that are, I would argue not really full, they're not, they're not leading me towards wholeness. they're, they're things I'm doing because, yeah. And we need to be very, we need to think a lot about our giving, and let it change us and if we're noticing our and our giving can take us the other way too.

If you start withholding money because you have some beef. that's, that's not a good thing. you're, you're not making your point, you're just hurting you. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, go to the run towards the mess, and I know it's, it's not easy to do. I don't like doing it either. That was one of the hardest things about being an elder is that, that's, that's, that's the job description as you run towards the messes. it's like, the Marines, when, you're running towards the conflict, not, when everybody else is trying to escape the, the battle, you're running into it, you're running into the fire.

the other thing you want to think about in giving is you want to think a lot about grace. for the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake, he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. Yeah, just think, think a lot about grace. Think about the grace that you've been shown.

just think a lot about grace when you think about, think about giving, just dwell upon that. Jesus gave until he became poor. how much to give? Ask God what he wants done with his treasure., there's a link in the handout and when you get the, the email link, you can actually click on it rather than typing in all those letters.

Randy Alcorn I think has a list of 40 questions to ask God. Something like that and oh boy, hold on, hold on to your seat. I, I, they're very challenging questions. but they go, but they go to the heart of giving and I, I, I've been reading those questions and I've been contemplating those questions.

They're not easy questions, they reveal some, some difficult stuff but talk to God about his treasure. Talk to him. Ask him, ask him some tough questions. and Randy, if you, if you don't know what to ask him, you read Randy Galorn and he'll get you started.

And like I say, hold on to your seat. It's, it's, it's, it's good stuff., where do you give? And this is, this is something, what's, what's, what's I don't normally call myself. I called myself for a long time, still am.

I am a church. there's something about it. But for most of my life, I didn't really understand what, what the local church was all about. I was really goofy in my thinking about the local church and part of it is that autonomy, I'm the judge, church leaders, well, I'll just pick up my stakes and move in, move somewhere else, if they're not doing what I want them to do., I had no concept that the mess, was, could, could be a good thing.

But in the New Testament, New Testament giving is typically within the local church. They're, I, I don't think the parish church ministries are wrong or anything or giving directly to people is, is, it, it's all good stuff. But in the New Testament, the huge amount of giving is within the local church. the one who's, and there's some things where specifically, the one who was taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.

we definitely have a responsibility and I know when I was an elder, that was something we took very, very seriously was, those who are set aside to teach the word of God need to be, taken care of by the, by the church, and that, that's a very serious, biblical responsibility. But the other thing that giving together does, giving to local church does, is that it changes your heart. And Paul says to the Philippians in Philippians 2, he says, make my joy complete by being what? Of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

How How does that happen? It's messy. It does, this, this thing where you, where, where you're united one purpose. It's not some ethereal thing, Well, we have unity.

No, it's a messy thing. It comes through making tough decisions and it, it comes hugely by talking through and working through how we spend The corporate finances of our body. And it says, and the congregation of those who believe were of one heart and soul, and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but that all things were common property to them. So there's, as, as an American born and bred, raised, I have strong feelings of autonomy.

I want, I'm, I'm the judge. Yeah, I, I, I don't have to get involved in the mess. I'm the judge. Kaboom.

I, I don't think that's what scripture teaches. I think scripture teaches that you, you are not the judge. You need, you need to walk into the messiness and be part of the becoming of 11 purpose, united in one, in one purpose. it's messy, it's hard, but don't just sit back and say, I don't agree with whatever.

Yeah. Get, get involved in the mess, get involved in the mess. And give to the meth., giving together is messy. It requires developing a common vision, that's tough.

It requires humility. You got, you've got to be humble to be in the mess. It requires putting others before ourselves. It moves us from brokenness to wholeness.

churches are messy places., parachurch ministries tend to look good. I, I, I know that you'll, you'll get a para church ministry, you go, man, these, these guys are, these guys are changing everything. And, and may, may very well they, they're a great ministry. The local church, oh my gosh, this is my people.

That's my elders and these goofy people and whatnot. And, and, and, you, you're weighing where to give. Well, I'm autonomous. I'm the judge.

It's Be careful about that. Be careful about that. You want, you want to, the mess is a good thing. What about giving to para church organizations?

There's in, in our world, there's lots of good going on through the par church, but think about giving through your local church. has your church, is your church partnered with any par church ministries to do things that they are too small to do? for example, in the community, feeding the hungry, maybe your church doesn't have a ministry to feeding the hungry. Are they partnered with someone who does?

This may be parachurch, but the, but, but you can partner with them. Those are, those are really good things where this this, this, this, this link between parachurch organizations and local, local churches. I know when I was in college, I was very much into in varsity. in varsity at that point did not have super strong, connections to local churches, and it just reinforced my autonomy.

I had, I, I, I went through college with really no understanding of, hardly any understanding of the local church. In fact, I was a little bit arrogant towards the local church. these are the, these are the old fuddy duddy people who aren't doing anything. we are the, I'm on the front lines, so I'm on inter varsity.

I'm in there in the college classroom, I'm standing up for Christ, well, all this stuff. And local church, it's a bunch of old fuddy duddies who just just sit and, they, they give their money every Sunday and, and it's, it just, it just was like was like whoa. There was in varsity, we were doing the book table and doing all kinds of great stuff and you go to church, it's like mm. But partnerships between parish churches and, and churches I, I think are great, great, great, great, great things.

especially college ministries. college ministries can, can partner with local churches, that is a tremendous thing. ask questions with a careful mind and an open heart. I've given you, also given, given you a link to, Randy Alcorn's list of questions to ask parish church ministries.

And those questions do need to be asked. you don't want to become callous or anything like that, but you do want to ask tough questions. I was, the, the phrase I like to use is a careful mind and an open heart. it's easy to get callous, you read stuff in the newspaper about ministries doing funky things with money or what, it's easy to get callous.

I do not want to get callous. I want, I want my heart to stay open, but I want my mind to stay sharp. Right? I want my mind sharp and my heart opened.

Closing your heart is lazy. I just tell my students that all the time because they would get, they would get turned off to something and I'd say that's lazy. you, you, you need to Just because you don't like something or whatnot, no, you gotta think about it. leaving a legacy.

managing your treasure that's left behind. scripture says a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, and the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous. we don't have much time left, in fact, we have no time left, but you do want to think through this. You do want to think about what you want to leave your children, what impact you want your legacy to have on your children, plan your legacy.

In fact, if your legacy is not written down legally, you don't really have a legacy. because somebody else is gonna make the decisions about what you leave behind. So you really do want to sit down and even if you're young, plan out your legacy. do you want your children to have everything or do, are, is, are there ministries?

Is it good for your children to, to inherit everything? That could be a bad thing, you want to think through, it could be bad for your children to get everything you've accumulated all in 111 drop. So you want, you want to think through that, you want to get it in writing, you want to talk it out, and you can leave behind a great gospel legacy, even after, you are gone. And I'm gonna skip this last, quote and I'm gonna go ahead and pray and then we'll be officially, done.

Lord, thank you just for your, wonderful and good grace. I thank you for being with us during the 6 sessions that we've had together. Lord, I pray you will continue to challenge us. Lord, this is your treasure, help us just to know how to manage it, how to manage it well.

thank you, Lord. We ask this in Jesus' name. Amen.